More than six years after he announced his candidacy for office and almost five years after he improbably became president, most people don’t require further evidence to be convinced that Donald Trump is a sociopath. But for those somehow still on the fence, who need just one more example before saying, “Okay, yeah, I see it,” today’s your lucky day.

In a taped interview with ABC’s Jonathan Karl, the 45th president “extensively” defended his supporters’ decision to chant, “hang Mike Pence” as they attacked the U.S. Capitol on January 6, 2021, suggesting that if the then V.P. didn’t want his life threatened, he should’ve overturned the results of the election like Trump had asked him to. Here’s a transcript of the conversation:

Karl: Were you worried about him during that siege? Were you worried about his safety?

Trump: No, I thought he was well-protected, and I had heard that he was in good shape. No. Because I had heard he was in very good shape. But, but, no, I think—

Karl: Because you heard those chants. That was terrible. I mean—

Trump: He could have—well, the people were very angry.

Karl: They were saying, “Hang Mike Pence.”

Trump: Because—it’s common sense, Jon. It’s common sense that you’re supposed to protect. How can you—if you know a vote is fraudulent, right—how can you pass on a fraudulent vote to Congress? How can you do that? And I’m telling you: 50/50, it’s right down the middle for the top constitutional scholars when I speak to them. Anybody I spoke to—almost all of them at least pretty much agree, and some very much agree with me—because he’s passing on a vote that he knows is fraudulent. How can you pass a vote that you know is fraudulent?

Trump, of course, attacked Pence in his speech at the “Stop the Steal” rally that preceded the deadly attack on the Capitol, telling the crowd assembled at the Ellipse, “I hope Mike is going to do the right thing. I hope so. I hope so,” and “All Vice President Pence has to do is send it back to the states to recertify and we become president and you are the happiest people,” and “Mike Pence is going to have to come through for us, and if he doesn’t, that will be a, a sad day for our country because you’re sworn to uphold our Constitution,” and “Mike Pence, I hope you’re going to stand up for the good of our Constitution and for the good of our country. And if you’re not, I’m going to be very disappointed in you. I will tell you right now. I’m not hearing good stories.”

Later, more than an hour after police reported that the metal barricades outside the Capitol had been breached and 12 minutes after the mob had made it inside the building, Trump tweeted, “Mike Pence didn’t have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our Country and our Constitution, giving States a chance to certify a corrected set of facts, not the fraudulent or inaccurate ones which they were asked to previously certify. USA demands the truth!” During the riot, Trump made calls to lawmakers, not to see if everyone was okay, but to continue to insist that the results should be overturned. According to Senator Ben Sasse, who said he’d been in touch with senior White House aides at the time, Trump was “delighted” about the insurrection and “walking around the White House confused about why other people on his team weren’t as excited as he was.” Finally, after saying nothing publicly for hours, Trump appeared in a video telling his supporters to “go home” while simultaneously telling the angry horde, “You’re very special,” and “we love you.” In a subsequent tweet, he wrote this historically crazy series of words, which ultimately got him booted from the platform: “These are the things and events that happen when a sacred landslide election victory is so unceremoniously & viciously stripped away from great patriots who have been badly & unfairly treated for so long. Go home with love & in peace. Remember this day forever!”

So, really, it’s not that surprising that 10 months later, Trump would maintain that his supporters did nothing wrong, but it’s actually legitimately nuts that he’s out here saying, basically, “Mike Pence had it coming.” 

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